Silent Weapons: Targeting Americans in the Homeland
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Silent Weapons: Examining Foreign Anomalous Health Incidents Targeting Americans in the Homeland
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The committee on Homeland Security, Subcommittee on Counterterrorism, Law Enforcement, and Intelligence will come to order. The purpose of this hearing is to receive testimony from expert witnesses from the national security realm that will inform our understanding of anomalous health incidents or more commonly known as Havana syndrome. I now recognize myself for an opening statement. Good afternoon, and welcome to the subcommittee on counterterrorism, law enforcement, and intelligence. We're holding this important hearing to examine anomalous health incidents, otherwise known as AHIs or Hermann syndrome, and discuss the potential targeting of US government officials and their families in the homeland and elsewhere.
Although this issue has recently gained significant media attention, the issues surrounding anomalous health incidents or Havana syndrome are not new. Dating back to 2014, a number of US diplomatic, military, and intelligence officials and their families have reported major medical symptoms that have affected their auditory and sensory motor skills. These issues became public in late 2016 after a group of Canadian diplomats and US government employees and their families assigned to the US Embassy in Havana, Cuba began experiencing similar symptoms. After the reported incidents in Havana, government officials and their families began reporting similar symptoms in the People's Republic of China, Vietnam, Germany, Austria, Serbia, Australia, Taiwan, Colombia, as well as here in the United States. Multiple agencies within the intelligence community have conducted assessments in an attempt to identify the factors that cause AHIs or who, if anyone, is responsible for these incidents.
Unfortunately, none of these studies could conclusively identify the causes of these incidents. However, the state department commissioned a study through the National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine that found, and I quote, unusual presentation of acute directional or location specific early phase signs, symptoms, and observations reported by Department of State Employees to be consistent with the effects of directed pulsed radiofrequency energy. Many of the chronic nonspecific symptoms are also consistent with known radio frequency effects, such as dizziness, headache, fatigue, nausea, anxiety, cognitive deficits, and memory loss, end quote. Since the National Academy's findings, generally, the IC, the intelligence community, has stood by their initial findings and maintains that the origins of these symptoms are still unknown, and not likely to be derived from the actions of a foreign adversary. Today, we hope to gain a better understanding of anonymous anomalous health incidents to address this pricing issue.
It's paramount that we acknowledge the gravity of this situation. And I think when you really look at what we're doing today, it's to have a transparent discussion, to talk to our 3 expert witnesses, to hear, in a in a manner consistent with what they went through, what the facts are. And as congress, the role on oversight is so important, that's what we're doing today. And so I'm proud that this is a bipartisan effort, and I now recognize the ranking member, the gentleman from California, mister Correa, for his opening statement. Thank you, mister chairman.
I agree with you. This is an important issue. Deals with the health and welfare of our government officials as well as others. Thank you again, mister Pflueger, and good afternoon to all of you. Welcome to witnesses today.
I'm here today filling in for a ranking member of mister Magaziner, who I'm happy to say he and Julia welcomed their daughter, baby daughter, to their family just, I think a day or so ago. So Magaziner, mister Magaziner, enjoy your time with your beautiful family. Today's hearing has been called to examine the anomalous health incidents affecting a range of US national security personnel, including intelligence officials, members of our armed forces, and diplomats. Sometimes referred as Havana syndrome, anomalous self incidents were first reported, as the chairman suggested back in 2014, by US personnel assigned to our embassy in Havana. Many have described the symptoms that were chronic and debilitating.
Sadly, these incidents have not been isolated to Havana. US personnel have reported such incidences in Hanoi, Vienna, London, Moscow, as well as here in the United States, in Washington DC, Virginia, and Pennsylvania. There have been several investigations into the cause of these incidents, including a study by the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine, several studies by Jason, an independent group of expert scientists, a brain imaging study by the University of Pennsylvania, as well as others, and that list is not exhaustive. Today, we have the privilege of hearing from retired lieutenant colonel Greg Edgren among our witnesses who ran the Pentagon's investigation into these situations. We also understand the intelligence and foreign service affairs committees have been engaged in an intensive bipartisan oversight of these anomalous health incidences for a while now.
And last year, the intelligence community completed a coordinated assessment regarding the causes of these incidents and found no evidence of an adversary adversarial activity. I know the lack of a finding in these cases after nearly 8 years of incidences is a source of frustration for the victims and, frankly, for all of us as well. And I am pleased that recently the Biden administration came out with a statement that they will continue to conduct comprehensive examinations of these effects and their possible causes. The director of National Intelligence, miss Arvo Haines, reiterated these comments in her testimony to the senate last week stating that the intelligence community is continuing its investigations into what happened in these situations. The committee this committee, I should say, is dedicated to working with our partners, the administration, and other relevant congressional committees to ensure that such examinations, investigations proceed, and that we take care of our people.
Let me repeat. We will take into, continue to take care of our of those afflicted by the Havana syndrome, and we'll continue to look for sources and causes. And, mister chairman, I wanna ask also unanimous consent that mister Eric Swalwell be permitted to sit in this committee and ask questions of today's witnesses. Without objection, so ordered. Thank you, mister chairman.
And with that, I yield. I think the ranking member and other members of the subcommittee are reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record. We're pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this very important topic. I ask that our witnesses please rise. Raise your right hand.
You solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the committee on Homeland Security the United States House of Representatives will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the troops, so help you god. Thank you. And let the record reflect that witnesses have answered in the affirmative. I'd now like to formally introduce our witnesses. Mister Gregory Edgren is a retired army lieutenant colonel and a former US government official.
He led the investigation efforts for the Defense Intelligence Agency into the causes of AHIs and who, if anyone, was responsible for causing these incidents. Mister Egren's career has covered 8 countries and 3 US embassies. He now serves as the CEO of Advanced Echelon LLC, a company in the United States with interagency experience leading AHI efforts. Mister Christo Grozev is an award winning journalist and the lead investigator for The Insider. He is also a member of Bellingcat Productions, which looks to translate Bellingcat Investigations into a range of new media products.
He was the lead Russia researcher at at Bellingcat until February of 2023. His investigations into the identity of the suspects in the 2018 Novichok poisonings in the United Kingdom armed him and his team the European Prize for Investigative Journalism. Lastly, mister Mark Seid is a Washington DC based attorney who specializes in crisis management and handling administrative and litigation matters, mainly relating to national security, international law, foreign sovereign and diplomatic immunity, and the freedom of information slash privacy acts. Mister Zaid often represents former and current federal employees, including military officers, defense contractors, and other national security professionals and whistleblowers. Again, I thank the witnesses for being here today.
I'll offer each of you an opening statement. I know you've submitted those as well. So please, if you don't mind, summarize it, and, we have a timer to keep to, 5 minutes so that then we'll go into the question and answer period. I now recognize Lieutenant Colonel Greg Ed Green for 5 minutes, on his opening statement. Good afternoon, mister chairman, ranking members, congressmen.
It is an honor to speak with you today and give voice to the unseen, the US government, AHI survivors, and their families. My name is Greg Edgreen. I stood up and led the DIA's task force, which was in charge of taking care of our survivors and determining the cause. For background, I'm not an analyst. I'm a retired army and intelligence officer.
The following are my personal opinions and do not represent the opinions of the government. Given the classification of this topic, many of my comments will have to be made at a future closed door session. As a country, we have been here before. Most people think this all started in Havana in 2016, the widely reported Havana syndrome. This led to the US withdrawing most of its staff and ending reproachment between Havana and Washington.
But before Havana syndrome, there was the Moscow signal. Soviet intelligence made the US embassy in Moscow with microwave transmissions. The health effects were similar to what we see today. There are many examples of syndromes and ailments from Americans injured in the line of duty that the government did not recognize for many years, which were eventually proven. Agent Orange used in Vietnam, the Gulf War Syndrome, burn pits during the forever wars of Iraq and Afghanistan.
In all of these examples, America took too long to acknowledge these injuries and our service members languished without care. Havana syndrome is no different. The gaslighting of AHI survivors continues to this day as history repeats itself. Throughout all this, I learned, America's best men and women in national security are being targeted and neutralized in a global campaign. AHIs have been reported in the press in every continent except for Antarctica, with a large percentage of these attacks occurring in the homeland, in American, in this town.
The impact has been that mission critical government officials working abroad and at home are being removed from their post with TBIs. Don't take my word for it. Nikolai Petrushev, the secretary of Russia's Security Council, wrote in September 2023, and I quote, in recent years, 100 of employees of foreign intelligence services involved in organizing intelligence and subversive activities against our country have been neutralized, end quote. The American people are losing strategic warning and decision making advantage and great power competition. America's eyes are being blinded, Their voices muted.
Their ears deafened. This is emboldening our other strategic rivals such as China and could encourage North Korea and Iran to take similar actions with no repercussions. We collected a large body of data ranging from signals intelligence to human intelligence to open source reporting and everything in between. Unfortunately, I can't get into specifics based on the classification, but I can tell you, at an early stage, I started to focus on Moscow. And consistently, there was a Russian nexus.
Since 2010, the number of counterintelligence incidents began to rise and so did Russian gray zone activities. These included assassinations, poisonings, sabotage attacks against NATO allies and others, many of which has been documented by Christo. After talking with the survivors who were hit in the US and abroad, I quickly realized these were no longer isolated incidents. There were reports of CI incidents, which included harassment, room intrusions, houses being defiled, tossed, pets poisoned, assaults on our personnel, officers and diplomats being drugged, doxing. Families harassed then in attack via directed energy, a red line to many because of the debilitating nature of these weapons.
The US government never hit back, and our nation's hidden heroes continue to be targeted today. Investigators often talk about motive, means, and opportunity. First, let's look at the motive. When president Putin says things like, if one looks into the security sphere, new physical principles, weapons will ensure the security of any country in the near historic perspective. We understand this very well and are working on it.
If know anything about the Russian Ministry of Defense, this is referring to directed energy weapons. 2nd, the means. Look at the contract for directed energy weapons, which is uncovered by my colleague, Christo. Look at the open source photos of Putin awarding scientist prizes for innovation, for weapons based on new physical principles. And 3rd is the opportunity.
Of course, they can do this. As openly reported in 2014, 3 CIA officers were stationed in Ukraine that year during a popular revolt that overthrew Moscow's preferred leader. Later, those CIA officers went on to other assignments and reported HI attacks, one in Uzbekistan, one is in Vietnam, and the third officer's family hit in London. Despite this large body of data, the ODNI said there's nothing to see here. Everything is dismissed.
And last month, the NIH said there's no evidence of physical damage despite all survivors reporting the same symptoms. This same study is now under review for its methodology. I would like to point this committee to the AHI experts panel whose findings were released in 2022, which saw all the same intelligence and information we did, but came to the opposite conclusion of the DNI. They noted that the signs and symptoms of AHIs are genuine and compelling, and that pulsed electromagnetic energy, particularly in the radio frequency range, explains the core characteristics. I think the bar for AHI attribution was set so high because we do not, as a country and a government, want to face some very hard truths.
Can we secure America? Are these massive counterintelligence failures? Can we protect our people on American soil? Is this an act of war? Despite our history of walking away those from those who sacrificed for their country, I am optimistic.
With congressional support, with your support, and an informed public, it is time to take action. This is a nonpartisan issue which has spanned several administration. Let's start to get this right with executive and legislative action. 1st, please I'm gonna go ahead and if you can wrap up, we'll we'll get to the Mister chairman, could I have, 2 more minutes, please? One more minute?
Yeah. One more minute is fine. We need to exec execute existing funding with the defense health program, which was allocated to take care of the survivors and their families, and we should fully implement the Havana Act. And we need a VA diagnostic code because right now, there is none. We need to award purple hearts in their civilian equivalents.
On the legislative front, we need a new NDAA that covers this in the Havana Act. I would like to thank this committee for their attention in this issue. Thank you to Orianna Zill, Michael Ray, Michael Weiss, and Christo for keeping this issue alive. I urge this committee to take care of our unseen survivors, execute existing funding, and more most importantly, pressure the government to fight back. Thank you.
Thank the witness. The chair now recognizes mister Grozev for his opening statement of 5 minutes. Thank you, mister chairman, the committee members. My interest in investigating the anomalous health incidents, occurred at around the time that there was the initial publicity around the Havana cluster. And, as a journalist, I just, watched from the sidelines and believed that US intelligence and US law enforcement are going to get us the truth, and, I was looking forward to that.
Until one day, I was approached through a friend, a common friend, by a member of the US intelligence community in Europe who advised me or nudged me or request asked me to look into this independently. And I realized that there's something possibly, limiting the capabilities or the willingness of US, law enforcement or intelligence to do a thorough study. That's when I started looking into this, as my own investigation. And over time, it grew into a multicountry investigation involving Der Spiegel in Germany, the insider in Russia, and our colleagues from CPS, 60 Minutes, with whom we joined hands in 2023. I would like to present a summary of our findings to as of this moment, but mind you, our investigation is still in progress.
Based on extensive interviews with victims, victims' families, and, also, analysts who agreed to talk to us, we can now state that to our own comfort and conviction, there's at least 68 incidents that cannot be explained away with psychosomatic symptoms or preexisting conditions. And we've taken those as the bare minimum that allowed us to create a time space map. Time space map that allowed us to geolocate these incidents and further match them to possible travel of potential culprits, and that was an important first part of our investigation. We established that the Russian government, as, lieutenant colonel Greene said, had the long standing motive and plans to develop something that they call wave weapons. This is a term they use as a catchall term for both, acoustic and and directed energy electromagnetic weapons.
This has started back in Soviet times. There are several patents that we've reviewed, from the seventies. However, the real boost to this program occurred in 2013 when president Putin created a special r and d institute called the Institute For Prospective Military Studies in Russia, which was tasked with, among other things, developing new physical property weapons, including wave energy. And, we know that there have been many awards, issued by this, institute, and that they do annual contest, closed door contest for military engineers providing prototypes and testing data on such weapons. We've obtained documentary evidence that in 2017, a military engineer serving in a commanding position in Jirio's clandestine sabotage and assassination unit known as 29155, was the recipient of the annual award from this institute for a project that was termed testing nonlethal acoustic weapons suitable for use in urban warfare.
Notably, the same military commander was immediately promoted to a political position as a personal represent of president Putin in the Far East of Russia. It's a very rare, switch, in a career of a of a secret spy in Russia, which is usually given after a kinetic achievement. And there are many examples in the past that I won't go into. Unit 29155 is the most aggressive clandestine sabotage unit of Russian military intelligence that has been responsible, as we many of us know, for offensive operations such as the poisoning of Sergei and Skripal and and Yulia Skripal with Novichok, a series of devastating explosions at NATO munition facilities in Europe spanning 2,011, 2018. The poisoning of 3 Bulgarian people involved with selling weapons to Ukraine.
And we've established that spies of this unit, including the commander, Andrei Varianov, have had sustained communication with military scientists from Russian military institutes, including the Institute For Perspective Studies, but also the 16 Research and Development Institute with specific competence and background in researching the effect of electromagnetic and acoustic waves on the human brain. We've also established, that, a medical research facility affiliated with the Giro U in Saint Petersburg has shown specific interest in researching the effect of ultra and infra sound on the human brain, and a medical facility linked to that particular institute has conducted research in a very rare medical condition known as the minor syndrome, which we have seen occurring among a sub cohort of the actual American victims of AHI. And, crucially, we've established that members of this same clandestine unit have traveled extensively around the world under false identities and have been in the proximity of or within feasible reach of confirmed AHI incidents in at least 4 cases, including Frankfurt in 2014, China in 2016 and 17, to in 21, and further overlaps of people linked to this unit, we've seen in Belgrade and and Hanoi. The totality of the evidence uncovered by our team has proven that Russia has the motive, the means, and the opportunity to have developed and used non lethal acoustic or electromagnetic wave weapons against members of the US intelligence and law enforcement community.
Members of the unit, 29155, were present in locations and at times directly proceeding or coinciding with known Havana incidents and at least 4 cases, and there are many more that we have to discover. I'll close with just a personal statement. These findings present not a smoking gun, but a very plausible operational theory on the existence, origin, and culprits behind the AHI. I expect the United States intelligence community will address our findings on their substance, on their merit, including providing alternative explanations for why these people who are known to only engage with kinetic operations, with assassinations, poisoning, explosions, never in intelligence gathering, were at the wrong time at the wrong place if they continue to believe that, none of this can be attributed to a foreign adversary. Thank you very much.
Thank you, mister Grozev. And the chair now recognizes mister Zaid for his opening statement of 5 minutes. Chairman, ranking member, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear today and testify about a topic that has mostly silently plagued our nation's intelligence, diplomatic military, and law enforcement personnel in some form for decades, and that is anomalous health incidents or AHIs. I've had the privilege of representing federal AHI victims and their family members for over a decade, years before the issue came to prominence with the 2016 attacks in Havana, Cuba. I now represent more than 2 dozen federal AHI victims as well as numerous lawful whistleblowers from within CIA, DIA, ODNI, NSA, departments of state and commerce, USAID, and the FBI.
The victims are not just selfless public servants, but their spouses, children, including infants, and even pets. These criminal attacks have primarily taken place overseas on multiple continents, but have also occurred on our homeland in Washington DC, Northern Virginia, Florida, and elsewhere. As part of my first case, I was provided an unclassified memorandum by NSA in October 2014, 2 years before Havana, that revealed the existence of intelligence information concerning a foreign adversary, quote, with a high powered microwave system weapon that may have the ability to weaken, intimidate, or kill an enemy over time and without leaving evidence. The 2012 intelligence information indicated that this weapon is designed to bathe a target's living quarters and microwaves, causing numerous physical effects, including a damaged nervous system, end quote. Today's hearing can only present a sliver of relevant information.
The overwhelming majority of evidence concerning AHIs is hidden behind classified walls. Having had authorized access to classified information on this topic, but without revealing that information, it is my view that the executive branch, particularly at the behest of and manipulation by officials within CIA, is not truthfully reporting what it knows. While I commend their acknowledgment that AHI victims are suffering genuine and compelling health effects, I am convinced that the evidence that exists in the classified arena directly contradicts the public conclusions expressed by federal agencies as to the origin, cause, and scope of AHIs. That review of that evidence would lead reasonable people to conclude 1 or more foreign adversaries are behind at least some of these incidents, and that numerous federal agencies have failed to fully undertake substantive investigations, deliberately delayed collecting or ignored crucial credible evidence, and have intentionally withheld information even from sister agencies so as to influence and manipulate their decision making process. There is intelligence, scientific, and medical evidence that substantiates the existence of AHIs and that some of the attacks were perpetrated by a foreign adversary.
That evidence can be specifically identified in the proper classified setting. That said, there's a wealth of publicly available information concerning the history of directed energy and particularly its scientific intelligence and military applications. I provide an overview in my written testimony. Given the many years our government has been experimenting with developing directed energy weapons, why would anyone not believe our adversaries are engaged in the same efforts? A recent investigation by 60 Minutes, Der Spiegel and the insider identified potential credible links between AHIs and alleged Russian operatives from military unit 29155.
This included activities within the United States. What was the government's response? CIA doubled down that there is nothing to see and that it knew of and had already ruled out the same evidence. That is a blatant falsehood that has infuriated many serving members of the intelligence community because so much of the evidence to the contrary is available to them in reports, briefings, and cable traffic. Of course, this evidence is classified.
Today's hearing is not going to solve the controversy that AHI presents, but there are many steps that Congress can take. These include ensuring continual and consistent health care for AHI victims, ensuring immediate implementation of and funding for the Havana Act of 2021, as well as amending it where necessary, investigating why law enforcement and other homeland agencies have not been permitted to pursue AHI leads concerning criminal attacks on American personnel, and instead CIA analysts who do not possess the same skill sets or authorities have been allowed to control the investigations and require the executive branch to develop comprehensive standard protocols that provide US personnel and their families with guidance as to risks involved and how best to report any incidents. It is time for the US government to be on the right side of history. I welcome the opportunity to try and answer your questions and providing you with classified responses in the proper secure setting. Thank you.
Thank you, mister Seiden. Members will now be recognized in order of seniority for their 5 minutes of questioning. And if time allows, an additional round of questioning may be called after all members have been recognized. Without objection, the chair, seeks permission for the gentleman from Mississippi, mister Gessen, the gentleman from, Florida, mister Jimenez, to also wave on to this committee. That objection's ordered.
Now recognize myself for 5 minutes of, questioning, and, again, thank the witnesses, for your statements. I'll start with you, mister Grisev. Maybe give us an idea of how this could happen in in the United States. Talk us through a scenario that you've investigated that technology and location, things that we can kinda put it into context and understand, in layman's terms. In terms of technology, I'm not an expert in in the technology behind this, but I've read enough, and I'm sufficiently, technically minded to understand that there there's more than one way to achieve this same effect on the human brain.
And one of the most disturbing, denials that I've seen in some of the, publications leading up to our findings being published was an attempt to create the impression that no technology would allow, this impact on the human brain. That is, provably untrue. There have been experiments that prove that, both acoustic and, waves directed waves in the ultrasound, primarily the ultrasound band, but also electromagnetic, directed energy, especially post nanoseconds, energy beams in the millimeter band through something called the Frey effect, which converts electromagnetic energy into an acoustic, band, wave that can be within or without or outside of the audible band, can have the same effect on the human brain, which can have long term, concussion like symptoms, but but in really traumatic, degree of concussion. So that is a given, and and I don't think today we have the expertise to talk about that, but but there's sufficient evidence, that that is possible. We also know that the Russian, intelligence operators has worked on that.
And, something I would like to mention as well is that after our publication, a former member of Russia's intelligence community reached out to me and said, well, this is what we've been working on since the eighties because we thought that the Americans were doing that to us, and, and we wanted to develop a counter technology for the same thing. So, of course, we're doing that, which is interesting because Russian intelligence officers believe they're doing this, and American intelligence officers are saying they're not doing this, though. Did this individual, this, Russian agent remain anonymous Unfortunately, for their own safety, I'll have to, leave them anonymous. But, it's a person with, in my view, sufficient knowledge of exactly the, the intents, the the the the red lines that this entity would would be exposed to. We know that members of this unit have engaged with scientists who have worked on a project called, reversal of epilepsy symptoms through radio waves, which for anybody known how Russia intelligence formulates their findings for the public facing domain, should read them as the exact opposite, creating, reversing, reversing essentially the polarity might might leave with the exact opposite effect, creating epilepsy symptoms, and so on and so forth.
This interest is is long running for for for the GRU, for Russia's military intelligence. One last thing I will mention is that we found that the only other place, other than among the cohort of American and Canadian intelligence and, and, law enforcement officers who have been affected by this, that we've seen very, very similar symptoms, was in a Russian school in 2017. And we found the evidence to, to this, similarity in a hacked email box of military researcher from the Saint Petersburg Institute For Experimental Medicine working for the for the GRU. This institute showed uncanny interest in exactly what happened in that school where 26 children complained of exactly the symptoms that we've received, in this, investigation from American officers and diplomats. And, again, it was this institute that followed up and did research and may have been behind those incidents in Russia, But we don't see them anywhere else other than around Russian operatives.
Mister Saeed, is it your belief that these attacks have happened inside the United States? And if so, can you, give us some of the locations and and details that you can share with us? Yes. Without a doubt, they have happened here in the United States. As I mentioned in my opening testimony, we know of quite a number, and I would say, perhaps, the majority of them were in the Washington DC, Northern Virginia area.
There are also a number, particularly of FBI personnel down in Florida. I do know of some other locations, of which I can tell you more about, in in a more private situation, not necessarily because of classification, but, for privilege of the individual client not to reveal it. But there is no doubt there have been quite a number of cases here, particularly relating to the CIA. Is CIA and FBI are most predominantly, also state department. Thank you.
My time has expired, and I recognize the ranking member for his line of question. Thank you, mister chairman. Clearly, what I've heard today is very disturbing. Before I get to my questions, I just wanna reiterate that we're gonna do everything we can to assure that the the victims, those that are suffering, will receive consistent health care for what is ailing you. But, mister Edgren, the evidence, No intentional attack.
Yet, what I'm hearing from mister Zaid, mister Grozov, is that there's a possibility that something is out there attacking, us, especially in homeland. Mister Edwin, based on what sir mister Zaid just said, what are your thoughts? My personal thoughts As an intelligence officer. Is that I agree with them. My personal opinions is that this is a global campaign, and it includes attacking us here at home.
It is a strategic issue that is going to impact us. Is this a attack by the Russians, just the Russians? And is it against the US solely or other allies as well? I have to be careful what I say here. So let me say this.
And if I can, say what you can. If you gentlemen feel better talking about this in a more secure setting I'll start by saying this. On that as well. Congressman, thank you for the question. Give me 20 minutes in a skiff, and I'll convince all of you.
I know where the bodies are buried. I know the cabinets to look in, the questions to ask, and the people to subpoena. I will say that this is a global campaign, and it's focused on attacking our people, the best of our people. It's not the middle range people that are being attacked. It's those that are succeeding, succeeding and providing work, work that winds up on the president's desk every morning.
So it's a massive issue. It's something that doesn't come to light, and it's something that especially with the Department of Defense survivors, the unseen, they're totally left out out of this. Because the Havana Act doesn't cover your active duty members, they're told to go to the VA. But there's no VA diagnostic code, so we're not getting them care. It's not consistent.
We have funding available that's allocated that we could provide to take care of all of our people in our government. We're not using it. That's what I urge you to Mister Zay contact the defense health program. In my last two and a half minutes, would you say this is more on behalf of US government in terms of what we've been looking at? Is this more of a malfeasance as opposed to misfeasance?
It's a good question. I I'm sure just like so many other issues, it's a combination. I I can't explain some of the obstacles that those in the government have erected to block information. I I can tell you, you know, firsthand that I have opinion would be that that information is being blocked? There is information that is absolutely being blocked from one agency to the other, particularly at the CIA.
I mean, that's who we're going to point to the most, of information that the CIA has that its sister intelligence agencies, it hasn't been shared with. And and I can identify a number of specific classified documents in the in a proper setting. Mister Grazev, any thoughts? I I would like to be the devil's advocate and allow for the possibility for some legitimate reasons why the US government and intelligence offices, agencies might not want to make this, a public issue. One of the few legitimate explanations for this in my mind is the fear of proliferation of such a weapon in case it becomes widely known that it's, achievable, feasible, and maybe not too costly to manufacture.
That's why I don't require public answers to our findings, but I encourage, skip answers to everything we found out to you and, and to government so that we exclude the possibility that is, if if that is the case of an attack on American, officials by, by the Russian state. Is there any way to protect our officials from these weapons? This is exactly why I do not take into account a possible legitimate reason for for hiding this because I I from from my personal, point of view, making this public is the best protection. My last few seconds, mister Redgran. Any thoughts?
The best way to protect our people is to fight back. When you're hit in the shadows, you have to hit back twice as hard and tell your adversary why you did that. Thank you, mister chairman. I'm out of time. I'll yield.
The gentleman yields. I recognize the gentleman from Arizona, mister Crane, for his 5 minutes of questioning. Thank you, mister chairman, for holding this hearing today. Thank you to our witnesses for showing up. Many Americans, including other members that I've spoken to recently, don't exactly know what to think of these anomalous health incidents.
I spoke to one the other day, just yesterday, who said, I thought that was debunked. Like Havana Syndrome, where our citizens are claiming very serious medical conditions following perceived attacks. And after hearing you your testimonies, it sounds like all 3 of you believe that, these are hostile actions orchestrated by our adversaries against American citizens. Is that correct? Yes, sir.
Yes. Not all of them, of course. Okay. And, I can't remember which one of you said. At least 68 incidents, that you believe to be attacks using these type of weapons.
Is that correct? These 6 type of incidents, I said cannot be explained away with with preexisting conditions with axiomatic symptoms. Can you go over again real quick, mister Groza, why you believe that our nation's own law enforcement and intelligence investigations have concluded the opposite of the claims made here today? One general observation. And, again, I don't know the answer, but based on my 10 years of investigation of Russian intelligence operations and, observing the parallel findings of law enforcement and and and intelligence, publications.
I find that there's an over reliance on on something that a colleague and a victim, a colleague of the victims and a victim himself, called the straw, drinking straw insight, that is unfortunately used for many of the conclusions. Reliance or reliance on human intelligence sources that may be, recruited within the Russian intelligence community who are asked, do you know if this is you, guys? And the answer may be no, and that may be a very honest, sincere answer. From my investigation, it it's clear that any operation like this is heavily compartmentalized, and it's firewalled to a degree where even members other members of the same unit might not be aware that this has been going on. And to rely on human intelligence, for conclusions of this stature is, is probably very inefficient.
What we do find is, unexplained travel. We we find, unexplained communications that all points to a very plausible and internally consistent theory that these people are behind the attacks. Again, I just I can see several reasons why the US intelligence might not want to make that public, but they must make it known to, qualified and, and and and in a secure setting, and and provide answers to our findings. Guys, if your, assessments here are correct, these are very covert weapons. Aren't they?
They don't leave behind bomb fragments, bullet holes, etcetera. They could absolutely be used by our adversaries and have very low levels of, very easy to deny that they were even there, that they were used. Is that correct? That's correct. There's no entry or exit wound.
How they're designed is to make the target feel like they're crazy, like they're imagining things, especially on the low duration, the low intensity long duration hits. But you were saying that the targets are most often always either CIA, FBI, intelligence, law enforcement individuals. Is that correct? No. I said, diplomats, intelligence community, and Department of Defense make up the lion's share.
You often don't hear about the Department of Defense despite DOD having 10 5 or 10 times the number of survivors that Department of State has. Thank you for that correction, sir. And you guys also said that these attacks are happening right here in this city. Is that correct? Yes.
Yes. Can you expound on that a little bit more? I mean, there have been some that have gone public with respect to Washington DC. The particularly credible ones, and I'm not saying that those are not credible, but the ones that have received the most attention on the inside of the intelligence community are in Northern Virginia, and they are particularly of CIA personnel. I think it was mister you mister Grozev said, you spoke to a Russian agent who said that they believe that Americans are using these same weapons on them.
Is that correct? That is correct. Back in the eighties. Might that have something to do, with part of the CIA's motto to cover up the existence of the this tech and these weapons? That is a very logical possibility.
Thank you. Mister chairman, I yield back. Gentleman yields. Chair now recognizes the gentleman from New York, mister Goldman, for his round of questioning. Thank you, mister chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for being here.
Mister Grozev, I wanna follow-up a little bit on the interactions you've had with Russian intelligence about, these a AHIs. If you had a conversation with an intelligence officer where a Russian intelligence officer where he or she said that these are the same weapons that were used in the 19 eighties. Isn't that an admission that they know they're using them now? It is an admission that it's very plausible that they're being used now because the person was not privy to this particular operation. He is or she is retired.
But, again, the important thing was the important thing is that he was serving at a time when there was a concerted effort for the Russian intelligence services to develop a counter weapon. And, he believed given time passed since then, it has been developed. I see. So he has retired and but believes that based on the similar symptoms or what other factors went into his Very very similar symptoms were being, conveyed, in terms of Soviet diplomats stationed abroad of, intelligence background, had returned back to Russia with, to the Soviet Union with symptoms that they believed were caused by an acoustic, weapon. That was their relief.
It's not the fact that it is what happened. But again, it explains partly the motivation for them to develop a weapon that will be targeting exactly the type of people that we see being targeted. And I I know there's some geospatial data that indicates there were Russian intelligence officers near alleged incidents abroad. Do any of you know whether that is also the case for any of the incidents that have been reported, domestically? I do not have that data, because the the particular unit that we've focused on, they would not dare come to the United States.
Therefore, if the Russians were doing this on US Soul, they would have used sleeper sleepers long term proxies that would be here. But that is not a unit that I've discovered in my own, career. And therefore, difficult to identify as affiliated with Russian intelligence. Colonel. Sir, I think you should, refer that last question to the FBI in classified spaces.
Yep. Obviously, the the episode with my client, an active FBI agent that was authorized to speak to 60 Minutes talks about an incident in Key West, and most of that information is either law enforcement sensitive or classified. Are any of you aware of, any reported incidents from individuals who are not members of the United States government in domestically, I should say? I am not, but I will throw a caveat in there. Generally, I only focused on former and current government employees that were attacked.
Mister Zayden, are you There are many people who believe they are victims of AHIs. All you have to do is look at my Twitter feed, whenever I post on the topic. I only represent federal government employees and their families, so I don't focus on the accuracy of those particular claims. And mister Graszap, do you have any insight? Not on American soil, but in, other parts of the world, there've been, complaints that appear to be credible from Russian activists or Russian opposition, leaders living abroad.
And, mister Zaid, you I wanna ask and this is a hypothetical, but I I'm trying to understand why our government would try to block information sharing or conceal, information that they have. And one thing that comes to mind is whether there's an operational risk to revealing any of the of the details of their investigation. Is is that something that you have come across, in any of your work? Yes. And quickly because I know your time is a lapsing here.
So I I do think that that is and I agree with with mister Grozev, that is there's a lot of reasons why the information might not be publicly released, and I do think that's something we could address more in a classified environment to explain that, but there are understandable reasons why the US government, has not revealed much of what it knows. But the question is, how about to you? But also the if I may, mister chairman, to follow-up on that, there is a conclusion that has been made public that it is highly, highly, highly unlikely. I forgot what the language is. That this these symptoms were caused by, some sort of, you know, foreign malign actor.
So the the last ODNI assessment that came out in 2023 had had indicated in in it to the public, it seems very damning. It's highly unlikely that foreign adversary was involved, but if you actually look at the, levels within each of the agencies as to the level of credibility that they have assessed to that is actually quite low for most of them, and there's a lot of pushback even internally among the intel some of the intelligence agencies as to the qualification of that information. I'll say just very quickly, finally, they talk about, in particular, I think one of the CIA's public documents, that many of these cases can be explained through environmental factors, pre existing medical conditions, but they don't explain any of that, which could easily be said in another sentence. The environmental factors include the following, whatever, whatever. We looked at prior health conditions, and 85% had football injure injuries when they played in high school and college.
None of that information is in there, which leads one to believe that there's something more. The other thing I'll say just really quickly on that, the news media missed the story on that CIA assessment. They said they looked at more than a 1000 cases, and they concluded the vast majority could be explained otherwise. But there are at least 2 dozen cases that even the CIA acknowledges they can't explain away by any other alternative factors. That to me is the story that should have been in the New York Times, in the Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, that there are 2 dozen cases the CIA can't even explain away.
Is that part of your 68, mister Grozev? Absolutely. Yes. Mister chairman, thank you for indulging. I yield back.
Jim, this time has expired. The chair now recognizes Jim, of California, mister mister Swalwell. Thank you. And I I thank the chair, and our ranking member for allowing me, to wave on to this hearing. And I I thank the panelists.
This is an issue that I know well, from, 8 years, on the House intelligence committee, and I I first just wanna say, to mister Zaid that, you know, your your clients, you know, who you represent, are heroes, and the people, who were subjected to this are American heroes. I've met a number of them, and, they served their country abroad. They toiled away, oftentimes without their family, leaving everything here in the United States, and oftentimes without, any of us really having a sense of what they are doing, and they were exposed, to this. And and and this condition, when you meet with the victims is completely debilitating. It changes your life.
It turns it upside down. And if you're a young parent, life is already disorienting. And if you're subjected to this, it's even more difficult to be a parent, put yourself through this, the questions you have. But something that I've been struck by, in meeting with so many of these victims is, yes, they want to get well themselves. They have an obligation to their families to take care of their families.
They have expectations, of the agencies that they work for. But in every single one of them, they want to share as much as possible to prevent the next attack. So their sense of duty, even after being attacked and even after being debilitated, is still, I don't want this to happen to somebody else. And and, mister Zayed, I don't know if you can animate that just a little bit as to the patriotism, of the people you represent and and wanting to get to the bottom of this. No.
Thank you, congressman. I agree a 100%. And it was mentioned by mister Ed Green, the notion of these oftentimes are the best of the best who have been impacted. And I have heard repeatedly from so many of them that what they want to achieve here is to make sure that their peers, their colleagues, and their future colleagues do not have this happen to them. And they they wanna go back to work.
I mean, this this is most of them were in their thirties and forties when they were impacted and would still have long careers ahead of them, and they want nothing more than to, to put their efforts into working for the national security interest of the United States. I they they are true heroes. I agree a 100%. And and as we think forward about, you know, what can we do, and this is the Homeland Security Committee. Obviously, this issue crosses jurisdictions, the House Intelligence Committee, Armed Services Committee, and Homeland Security Committee.
But I would just welcome, from the lieutenant colonel. How should we be thinking about this on the homeland? And if this is indeed, you know, a foreign adversary, you know, using, a technology or a technique, you know, how do we prevent it from coming on to the homeland, where, you know, the targets the target environment is even richer, than Americans abroad? Thank you, sir. First of all, I I must say that, yes, there's needed, much needed legislation.
We need a new Havana Act, something that's not a one term payment. It was an a great step in the right direction, but it had some shortcomings that we're gonna fix in the next go around. What you're referring to would obviously have fall under the next Homeland Security Act and securing our borders. Because if I, hypothetically, was gonna plan an operation, I'd have to get a couple guys across our border. They would go pick up a weapon and then start surveilling the target and then hit them and then disappear.
And, so I think there's there's a larger question there that I'm not qualified to answer, but there's some long term things that needs to be done in terms of of new acts. But in the short term, we need to do things like implement the original Havana Act. DOD still hasn't done it. They still have not implemented the Havana Act. And we need a VA diagnostic code.
Thanks to the VFW brothers and sisters that are here today and for your meeting earlier, we don't have a VA diagnostic code for the 500 some DOD survivors. Yeah. How are they gonna get long term care and disability without that? Yeah. Well, I I I hope this issue, you see in a in a room that is often contentious, explosive, volcanic, that you've got members on both sides who, first, honor and salute the victims and wanna do everything we can, to make sure, that they're made whole, and if they can return, can return.
And then, of course, as the victims have wanted to do, make sure we do everything possible to prevent anyone else from suffering from this. I yield back. Thank you, chairman. I think the gentleman, will now enter a second round of questioning. I know we have a couple of other members who were seeking to wave on, and, we will again alternate, according to, to seniority on both sides of the aisle.
So I recognize myself, for another round of questioning. Let me just kinda go back to, mister Ed Green. When you look at I mean, what is your, I guess, analysis of how many victims you can identify that that have been that have occurred here in the United States? And then, you know, secondly, what's been the response by government agencies, to those to those victims from the time that they report it to the communication between agencies, if any communication exists, and maybe focus a little bit on the FBI. Yep.
Thank you. I can't get into specifics about the numbers, but, after having talked with Because numbers, in specific locations of attacks are classified. But I can tell you roughly 20 to 30% of the cases that I saw were in the homeland. In terms of the response on the homeland, it gets tricky because it involves authorities here within the FBI. And what I have found is that we needed a faster response mechanism.
US government doesn't have a central clearing house for AHIs. K. So let's say someone in the air force is attacked on soil, how do you quickly find out about that and and freeze the crime scene and go out and evaluate it. And there's no no coordination that's happening in between departments and agencies and organizations? It's happening, but it's very slow.
It involves letterhead memorandum that takes weeks to process. CCTV footage expires in this town within 24 hours. Talk to me about the classification. Who classified it? You'd have to ask the ODNI.
They are the over they they oversaw all all things related. Your under your understanding and what you're testifying to now is it is classified, so there is an acknowledgment of an issue at least. Clearly, sir. There is. Mister Grozev, I'll I'll ask you the same question.
How has the FBI handled the complaints and and the, you know, we wanna call them, the the not if you wanna call them, the victims, and and their, I guess, reaching out to, within the FBI. How have they handled it? I'm not privy to that investigation. From my incidental observations, my belief is that the FBI feel, that they have to toe the line, of the intelligence community on this topic. And they feel some of them feel that they wish they could do more, to protect their own colleagues.
Okay. Are they being told is it your feeling that they're being told from superiors or others within the FBI to stand down? I do not have evidence they've been told, but, being, patriots, it might be a self imposed limitation to not, contradict the overall finding of the director of National Intelligence. I'll ask the same thing to you, mister Zayed. Is that, your your understanding, or is there something similar to that going on?
With that, I think the FBI has becoming better, more receptive, but I'll give you a perfect example. In March of 2021, the FBI drafted a workforce message concerning AHIs to go to everyone about what to do, how to report it. It took them 6 months to issue that notice. During that time, my client Carrie, who's in the 60 Minutes episode, was hit. That workforce message still didn't go out, and it took a long time to even get medical care for many of the FBI victims.
It it has been a complicated process. There are specifics that we could absolutely provide to in a more protected environment, more so for the privacy of the individuals, but also from a classification standpoint that would show you where the the system has broken down. How high does this go? We're talking about, as has been testified to today, high, successful, well performing people. But, I mean, can you give us some details about how high this this goes in our government?
From a victim standpoint? Or from a victim standpoint. I I mean, it has been reported, individuals connected to the NSC and and the White House Those have been impacted. As lieutenant Carl Ed Green brief those that could brief the president up to Yeah. And and some I mean, some some of them have been public in some prior 60 minutes episodes of of believing that they have been impacted and, I mean, there would be evidence that would be in the classified sphere.
Of the incidents that are happening in, say, Northern Virginia, Washington DC, are families, family members also reporting having, symptoms and being attacked? Not as men it usually, it has been in the overseas locations where the family members have been impacted, generally because it is it is, as I described in that NSA memo, bathing the residents. And, you know, they have no idea who might be inside the residence. Yep. That's why literally pets have been impacted because they've been in the the beam, the wave, whatever.
Most there have been government buildings impacted in Northern Virginia, and it's usually been individuals either in their home, hotels, or, driving. Is is it the what the panel's belief that this is primarily happening from, attributed to Russian operatives? I've said this before. There's an extremely strong Russian Nexus, inside China. I think that changes a bit.
And quickly, mister Grozev? We have the specific evidence of Russian operatives being in China at the time when American diplomats suffered incidents. This could not have happened without the knowledge and, at least passive cooperation by Chinese intelligence, which means Chinese intelligence would be exposed to the capabilities, and possibility of such a weapon, which probably means they have developed their own version or borrowed from Russia. Thank you. Alright.
My time has expired. I recognize the ranking member. Thank you, mister Edgryn. We started talking about, you know, the lack of, government action recognizing this issue. You compare this to Agent Orange and some of the other ailments our military personnel have suffered, and it takes decades to acknowledge that, yes, this is an issue.
It's a medical issue to be taken care of, to be treated on a long term basis. It's kinda where we started today. I think that, I agree with you and with the chairman and mister Swalwell who worked on this issue for a long time that we do have to take care of the victims, the best we can. Now we're shifting to something else, which is essentially a cover up. What you all are saying is there's a government cover up of the fact that something is out there afflicting, targeting us.
Is this where we're going with this? Thank you. Great points. I won't get into classification of the problems. I will tell you that the government and the IC assessment is wrong.
It's dead wrong. I can't tell you if it's a cover up, why they're doing this, malfeasance. I I I won't go there. What I can tell you is that it's my firm belief. We already have attribution.
Right now is the time for action, retribution, and we need to prioritize taking care of our people because there's a lot of a lot of survivors and their families that have been attacked here in the homeland that are in a long wait line to get to Walter Reed because we're not executing funding that's already been allocated by by you gentlemen to take care of these survivors. You fix Walter Reed and the defense health program, everyone benefits. Mister Zaid. So, sir, I've been working in the national security field for 30 years representing some of our most covert intelligence officers, who I respect a great deal, and the agencies. The word cover up, I will tell you that there are many legitimate reasons why there could be what the agencies are doing, to explain why they are doing it.
What I will tell you is Would you say public statement. Cover up as a statement or other words? So cover up would depend on intent. There could be good reasons to withhold information. I will say that the public statements that the executive branch is making is inconsistent with the classified record, and then it would be Congress's job as an oversight authority to determine why that is, whether it was a legitimate reason to mislead the public or because of some nefarious reason or all the above.
But the record on the inside in the classified theater is not consistent with the public statements. Mister Grozev. If if if this is true, and it depends partly on classified data that I'm not privy to, then it's a judgment call that was made to mislead the public in the interest of national international security interest. 1 but it will be up to congress to decide whether that judgment call was correct. 1 additional, effect of such judgment call that may not have been taken into account is the effect of encouraging the hostile power.
On in the hypothesis that this is indeed a Russian covered operation, and the whole, intelligence community of the United States has publicly denied this ever happening. This will be such a trigger, such an incentive for Russia to escalate and to it will be for somebody who knows how the mind of president Putin works, I can tell you that if they did it, and the United States government has concluded they didn't do it, this will encourage an escalation, in the war in Ukraine. This will encourage an escalation because this person thinks the rest of the world are complete idiots. And and and really, that's how his mind works. So take this into account when you assess the judgment call.
Thank you. Any other thoughts? Chairman and I go ahead, mister Edwin. I would just like to thank this committee for for focusing on this issue. One of the things we always did at the DIA was not questioning the individual.
Are they really having symptoms? We got immediate care for every single symptom, and I think that's the right way to do it. In terms of attribution, I think we over empowered CIA analyst. And when they kicked it up the food chain to ODNI for NIC assessment, when you look at it, the people they kicked it up to were other CIA analyst on loan. So this was a self licking ice cream cone.
We need more people inside the Department of Defense or with an operational background to look at this. Because if you show an analyst flowers, they're gonna look for a wedding. You show a case officer those flowers, they're gonna look for a funeral. Thank you, gentlemen. Mister chairman, I yield.
And I thank the ranking member. Chair and I recognize the gentleman from, Arizona, mister Crane. Thank you, mister chairman. This next question is for mister Zaid and Ed Green. Are either of you aware of any individuals who have AHI symptoms have passed away from their ailments?
I do. I do. We do we know how many that you're aware of? We need to discuss that somewhere else? For the privacy of the the families, it's a small community.
Right. Mister chairman, are we gonna be able to move into, classified setting at some point or at another time? I I think I think that possibility will exist at a later time. Thank you, mister chairman. There's concerns that the FBI has totally dropped the ball on this investigation.
Would the panelists agree with that assessment? I would, and I would say that a great question for you to ask is to the FBI, how many people did you have assigned to this? And they're gonna come back with a big number. And then you're gonna ask, how many people were assigned to this full time? And then you're gonna see the looks on their faces.
Because by my accounts, I had roughly 2 officers from the field office, I had a GS 15 at headquarters and an analyst. The best one out of all of them was the analyst. And I'll say they all had additional duties. That wasn't their main job. They were doing things like looking at January 6th, looking at terrorism, threats here in DC.
So it's been very small, hasn't been resourced properly. And anytime you you work with the FBI, and this is fascinating because I I did my whole career abroad, it's easier. They put things into a black box. And one of the main problems we had is they had on a criminal hat, crim as they say in the FBI, and not a CI hat. Gotcha.
Do you believe that, Homeland Security investigation should get engaged in this investigation? Absolutely. Because they were cut out. You only had, I believe, my time there, one Homeland Security officer. She was an analyst for Secret Service.
Homeland Security investigation should be involved. Have any of you, 3 panelists ever seen one of these weapons? I have seen a 1991 version of the weapon, and it looks, like a satellite dish with with a unit this size attached to it. At least, of course, over the years, miniaturization, has been possible. Obviously, there's a limitation to how miniature it rice it can be because of the antenna size, which can always is always related to the wave.
But still, it is something that can be well contained in a in a trunk of a car or even a large backpack. Is this a type of weapon that could be cobbled together once foreign operatives are on our own soil? Or is this something that would have to be manufactured in a nation state? My my experience shows that it can be, cobbled together. It's something that can a rough crude version of this that will probably require longer exposure than the more advanced version, that has been tested.
As we see, from this document, can be put together inexpensively. But, again, I would abstain from commenting further lest I encourage people to try it at home. That would make this e this weapon and this tactic even more dangerous, wouldn't it, mister Grozev? Correct. Can you tell us, sir, about this contract you discovered for these weapons?
The contract was, an award by the Institute For, Prospective Military Studies, an annual award that, means that this was the best development for a unit research research and development achievement for a unit whose goal is to, encourage the production and manufacturing and discovery and invention in the area of new weapons, the both lethal and nonlethal. I know that this same commander won the award of this, institute 2 years in a row. We're only privy to one of his devices, to one of his, achievements. We don't know what subsequent years delivery from him was. But again, I mentioned this in order for you to understand that the perceived value, the perceived merit by the Kremlin of this particular award, of this particular achievement was high enough for it to be done the only award for the year.
And for this person to achieve to achieve a political placement, a position that is not usual for a security operative. And and and this is the value of of of our finding. This was a very momentous moment for the Kremlin, this this particular achievement. Mister chairman, can I have 30 more seconds? I think it was you, mister Grozev, who said that, in your investigation, you were able to conclude that, one of these units who is operating on our soil, was found near individuals that, contracted these illnesses.
How were you able to confirm this unit's proximity to individuals who experienced these injuries? We've used over the years a, amalgamation of data sources from the Russian, market of data, which is a unique phenomenon. We've obtained border crossing data. We've obtained ticketing data, hotel reservation data, and telephone communication data for essentially 60 members of this unit that we've identified over the years. Have have any of them been apprehended, mister Grozev?
Several of them have been indicted. 4 of them are 6 of them are united in Bulgaria over including the person that we just referred to, the the engineer who who discovered the acoustic weapon or or delivered it. They're indicted, but they're obviously there hidden well hidden in Russia and cannot be apprehended. Thank you. Mister chairman, I yield back.
Gentlemen, yields is now concludes the questioning, portion of the of the hearing. And I'd like to thank the witnesses. I'd like to thank you for your time, your service, for being able to come here today and share with us. Obviously, as my colleagues on both sides of the aisle have said, the health, the well-being, of all of the service members, government officials, it's it's very concerning. What we've heard today is very concerning.
And, you know, I think as we look at the next steps, I would just encourage continued communication with, with this subcommittee, with other subcommittees and committees that are looking at this as well. The members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witnesses, and we would ask you to please respond to these in writing. And pursuant to committee rule 7 d, the hearing record will be open for 10 days. Without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.